The $600M Content Secret Nobody Talks About - Simon Beard

Transcribed from the episode audio, so you might spot the odd typo.

Simon: My first day I sold nothing.

Alycia: No way.

Simon: And then I shifted my state, and then I just came out and I went, "Right, the show starts now," and I made 1,000 bucks off one spiel. People weren't buying a product, they were buying a feeling, emotion. If I can generate it in myself and link it to the product, then bang. People didn't know they wanted a product, but if you entertain them, you inspire them, you educate them, you can shift someone to influence, to take action. Anything that's hard to do, that's where the opportunity is. If I'm finding this f*cking hard, it is hard to do. My God. If you try to sell to everyone, you sell to no one.

You have to pick a market and nail that.

Alycia: How do you think AI is going to change the content space?

Simon: I do think it's the ultimate swap

Alycia: Simon, most people might know you as the guy behind Culture Kings, sold for $600 million. You had Drake and Snoop Dogg. But there is a part of your story that a lot of people actually don't know about, which I'm really excited to talk w- with you today. So welcome to How Do I Podcast?

Simon: Thank you. Thanks for having me.

Alycia: The coolest thing when I was doing research on Culture Kings and how it grew to the incredible brand that it was, is so much of that is down to your marketing brain and the way that you think and analyze things, and I think there's a lot of stuff we can get into around, like, you know, getting attention and building demand and creating hype. But before we do any of that, I wanna start somewhere different, because no matter what someone learns today, it's actually not going to help them if they don't understand this one thing, which is what you do before you create any piece of content.

Simon: Shift my emotional state.

Alycia: Mm-hmm.

Simon: Yeah. Well, I suppose I learnt this so much at the markets, and it really was this tipping point in building Culture Kings, is that I l- I'd brought all the stock. I was at 17. I never worked a job. I, my first day I sold nothing, and I was like, panic, okay, what do I do? I've put all this money and that I owe into this stock. I have to sell it. I had to learn how to sell. And as I wor- worked on those skills and got better, I realised the big lead domino was that people weren't buying a feeling, emotion.

Yeah. People weren't buying a product, they were buying a feeling, emotion. If I can generate it in myself and link it to the product, then bang, but I had to generate it myself first, and if I got myself into that right state, it was, it was the unlock. And I, I had this moment, I tell this story, I sold... You know, I was ready to go home and quit and, and then I shifted my state.

I did my own little, did listen to Jay-Z, jumped up and down. Had my own version of the haka. Yeah. And then I just came out and I went, "Right, the show starts now," and I put on a show. I spruiked. People came. They listened. All the f- I entered a flow state. All the stuff that I learnt-

Alycia: Yeah...

Simon: Came back to me, the high warmth, high confidence greeting, the pre-frame, the bottled enthusiasm, the overcome the objection, and then I just said, "Look, I don't want anyone to miss out. If you all just form an orderly line and get your 50 bucks out-" And they got in the line and got their 50 buck, and I made 1,000 bucks off one spiel. And it was just like, whoa.

Alycia: Yeah.

Simon: That moment was when I realised is like, if I can generate in myself, and then I learned to, to do it and get better, and then eventually train people, ignite the state in them that they could do it, and this was the, the core element of Culture Kings. 'Cause this was how we did it, is we sold, we created demand. People didn't know they wanted a product.

Alycia: Mm.

Simon: But if you entertain them, you inspire them, you educate them, and this is why I speak so content as this now-

Alycia: Yeah...

Simon: Is that you can shift someone to influence, to take action, and that is the skill. That is, that was the unlock that, that built Culture Kings.

Alycia: Feel this. Like, you'll be scrolling on Instagram and someone's just like grabbed a camera. They're like, maybe a bit nervous. They're like- Yeah... you know, there, there's beauty in authenticity as well. Yeah. But like, if you want to be, you know, the world's best podcaster, or have this massive YouTube channel, like, you gotta act as that person and show up in that state.

Simon: Yeah. And- And, and it just, it just travels through. It cuts, it cuts through, and it's a nuanced difference too that I've really noticed and-

Alycia: Yeah...

Simon: Yeah, especially from that pattern recognition over time, and it is the thing of- Of how important it is training staff to be able to do it. You know, I learnt that very valuable lesson of just how important the training, and it can never stop. One of the biggest mistakes, you know, I always see these companies make is, "We'll do one video." Yeah. "We'll do one thing." Yeah. And think it's there, where it's just has to never be so relentless in it.

Alycia: Yeah, and I wanna talk about that as well, because a lot of people do have, like, media teams they're working with, or they're trying to train AI- Yeah to be like them. So we'll touch on that, too. I love that you mentioned the markets, because when you were there, right, you've gotta get strangers' attention.

Simon: Yes.

Alycia: And podcasters, content creators- Yes... also have to do that.

Simon: Exactly.

Alycia: So what can we do to get attention from people?

Simon: Well, it's, it's funny, I went down the markets actually last week, 'cause I, I had 15 minutes and I was like, I saw them all, um, set up along the service and I went and I, I did a little one of, of helping 'em. Yeah. But one of the biggest things is that they- they've gotta split it into part- It's like, okay, the only way you can grow a business is you get more traffic to walk past. Oh. Of that traffic, how many stop and pay attention? This is one of the most important metrics, where in a market stall, that's your signage, that's how you present.

That's if you stop and you actually throw out a tone. This is, this is how it relates to exactly like in podcasting. And then of the people that stop, how many do you actually get them to come over and engage? Mm. From the engage, how many, what percent do you close? Do you sell? Of those percent that you close, what is the average order value? How much stuff do you sell them?

Alycia: Yeah.

Simon: And then if you sell them, how often do you get them to come back? And they're all parts of the metric of the funnel that I learn in the markets, and then what's measured gets managed, what's managed gets improved. And just breaking that down. And that is, that is where I always see is like, the markets is brutal, but what I was trying to tell them is like, this is such an important skill that you're learning, and what I would be doing if I was there is capturing all the content from it- Yes.

Totally... because there is so much of that that can be used and leveraged to then also do it online. Yeah. Because that was... We've, we've been doing that at the stores for ages. I can't believe more haven't caught up to it. But the store is the studio. Mm. The store is, at Culture Kings, was to create the content, create the theater, create the emotion, the experience that would transfer through the content and- Yeah grab people's attention. But the most important part, at the start, if y- if you've just got someone walking past from, how do you get across in the first couple of seconds? High warmth, high competence, which is... So, tr- the warmth, trust.

Alycia: Yeah.

Simon: You know, and I would always use examples of this, like think of The Rock, right? He's, he has this warmth. Like, you would just trust him to look after your kids. Yeah. Right? Straightaway. Like, he'd be good. But then as well, you, not just warmth, this feeling of connection- Of rapport. People like people who are like themselves or who they'd like to be. And m- but then as well, high competence, which is, eh, you have to actually also come across as a figure th- figure of authority and expert.

Yeah. That you just don't, 'cause this is, what I always say, normal retail was low warmth, low competence. "Hey, guys. How's it going today? After anything in particular?" Yeah. Right, which is low warmth and low competence, where you have to come across with that connection and the high competence of a figure of authority. You know, you have to have this energy, you have to have this certainty. Is there something you can say, frame in that first couple of seconds that does it as an expert? I know that's why it's, it's cringey, my personal branding content, but how it has to become across is so much of that social proof of, because, "Well, I did sell a company for 600 million."

Because straightaway, that creates the frame of figure of authority expert, yeah.

Alycia: I'm a good person. Yeah. And, like, you will notice that if you haven't watched Simon's videos already. Like, just jump through a few and you will. You'll always have this, like, hook at the start, where you're building trust, building rapport, and then you have that authority piece. And you'll see the best podcasters do this as well. Like, Dara the CEO, in their big trailers, they've got, like, something that's gonna bring you in, and there's actually an account, I'll pop it in the show notes, Anthony Smith, like, breaks this down. So you bring someone in, and then you tell them who that person is.

Why should they care?

Simon: Yes.

Alycia: Like, what is it about that person that's gonna give them value? 'Cause if you just have this guy and he's talking about, you know, brain science or something, cool. But if you're like, "This guy is the leading neurologist, and he's done this, this, and this."

Simon: Yes.

Alycia: Oh, maybe I should listen to that, which is really cool. Okay, so we've got so many things from that that I think can transfer into podcasting- Yeah... because you need to get attention, and that's not necessarily from... Like, if you have a podcast and you never promote that somewhere, no one will ever- Yes... find it.

Simon: Yeah.

Alycia: So I think even whether it's, you know, creating different types of content, we're testing this out at the moment, is not just doing clips from the podcast. It's like, what sort of clip could you create that would encourage someone to save it or to share it or to build that audience wider and wider? Once you've got that audience, you want them, something else you said is, like, getting them to come back and getting them to buy from you, or in our case, it's maybe, like, getting them to subscribe.

Yeah. What can you do to keep them engaged and, like, keep them wanting more?

Simon: So once you've got them actually engaged, I, I try and follow it as a... So once you've got the rapport, once you've got the inc- connection, you have to overcome objection in selling. So there's always gonna be objection. "Yeah, but what about this?" Yeah. "Yeah, but there's a bigger expert." "Yeah, but too big, too small, too..." Is how do you bring it into a, a call to action? And that call to action being to subscribe has to be in there, but in a semi, like it cannot, it loses a lot of trust and authority if you call it so directly, "Like and subscribe." Yeah.

Yeah. Right? So that is the element there in how do you bring it in that is, you know, can you Easter egg something for the next episode, something that you'd wanna stay tuned for this. Some sort of value part-

Alycia: Yeah...

Simon: That the connection. But I do believe it, it comes, and where I think this is going so much more with the content and the flood is the is the more niche, is the more specific, the better. And this is where I'm a big one, is not worrying about the audience size, but that narrow and deep. And this is, this is not just h- uh, happening across content. This is a huge thing that I've seen in my e-commerce world. Mm. Is because, see, the early days of e-commerce was whoever could have the biggest catalog online.

R- remember people would say these- Yeah... terms like limitless aisle. Yeah. And you have, as I say, this was like the iconic and the surf stitch. Yeah... which never freaking made any money, right? They just lost money because having these enormous catalogs. But now the biggest game changers that I've seen, the fastest growing consumer brands we've seen of all time, like I always talk about 'em, Hudson from Comfort or- Yeah IMA or Grunz- Yeah... is what do they do? Very small catalog, like one product.

Alycia: Mm.

Simon: But super deep in that, in niche, and then width of content.

Alycia: Yeah.

Simon: And because these big players cannot have this width of con- How do you have width of content across 10,000 SKUs?

Alycia: You can't.

Simon: You can't compete. Yeah. And that's where the opportunity is, but that's, that's the same as in the, the podcasting, the whole content size. This is my part, and I'd always sort of say all this, is don't try and boil the ocean. You know, if you try to sell to everyone, you sell to no one. You have to pick a market and nail that specific. I, I do think it's one of this, like when anybody, someone's pitching me or something, like, "Yeah, who's your customer?"

And like, "Well, everyone." It's just, I just hang up straight away. I'm gone.

Alycia: Yeah.

Simon: Because you've lost me. Yeah. There's, uh, you h- you really have to get that so narrow in niche. And so that's, if I wanted to get people to subscribe, I would get it so niche and so narrow that someone's like, lights up, "Oh my God, this is for me." Mm. And it's in the targeting, the on-screen text. Yeah. You know, we've been so much of, of what's on that text in the hook is so crucial in the targeting. Mm. Definitely learning this off millions of bucks of ad spend and Creator Army, and this is just- Yeah... and how you can be so specific, like- I, uh, I helped this real estate agent with it and just made it bigger, but just putting their suburb that they were- That's it specific, like Indooroopilly. Yeah. You know? And it was like, just stop appealing to everyone. You only wanna win Indooroopilly. Everything has to have Indooroopilly on the text. Indooroopilly buyers be aware, and it just targets so much better 'cause that creative does the targeting, and so much of that targeting is, 80% of it is in the hook- Mm in that first three seconds.

Alycia: Yeah.

Simon: So I would, I would focus on getting it narrow and really cut through, like someone's eyes, like, "Whoa," like someone's speaking really to me. Mm. And then, um, once you've done that, it's just overcoming the objection, and once you've got that resonate, they're gonna subscribe, they're gonna get into that niche.

Alycia: Be part of it. Yeah. Yeah. And, and I think so many people are so scared of niching. They're like, "Oh, I can't do that," but, like, there's so much value in this. We were talking about it before we started recording, like our renovation podcast, we got these massive deals for that. We're a tiny audience- Yeah... but they were like, "Every person who listens is that person."

Simon: Yes.

Alycia: And for you as a creator, it's so fun when you know exactly who that person is that you're creating for. You can make better content too.

Simon: Uh, exactly.

Alycia: With everything that you're saying, 'cause you, you know, have advised so many people, you've got Creator Army, what types of content are performing the best right now? You mentioned those texts on screen.

Simon: Oh, just, we very much still lo-fi. Like lo-fi, the best ads don't look like ads. Yeah. Um, a lot of, so the person in the part, uh, green screen working with hi-fi c- content in the background. Yeah. I'm a big one of, of that's working. You... Oh, we just... But most important is you've gotta build this machine that can throw the volume. Mm. A lot of people, I hate it when they're judging quality. We don't need to judge quality now. The algorithm does that. Mm. Whatever it's saying, and not just views, because it's on what is the result that you're doing, and this is why I just so focus on ads because, like organic, who cares, right? But ads, you can actually see the click-through.

You can actually see the attribution. It builds the funnel now and how to do it. Uh, that is where I sort of put all the focus, but yeah, where I'm sort of seeing it is definitely volume. You need this width, all different angles, uh, how you can- But really dial and dial that targeting in to be that wolf whistle to the right audience- Yeah and as specific as you sort of can.

Alycia: Yep.

Simon: Uh, and yeah, but then following the, the part objections, uh, and depending, I suppose this is a big lesson, depending how big the thing is you're selling or how it is, don't be scared about the length of the ad. Mm. We've got a supplement one we've done in America, and the number one ad, like absolutely printing, is six minutes long.

Alycia: Really?

Simon: Yeah.

Alycia: No way.

Simon: Yeah, so it is this sort of one of- Of, to get them across, and then you're seeing the AOV, you're seeing the subscriber rate off the charts. It's like you're just overcoming all that objection. You're selling, selling, selling, and it's just getting it all the way over and, and yeah. So my part, and this is where too, where even when you're clipping podcast ads, obviously everyone knows this print- Yeah but, and still work now, but I think trying a bit longer ones.

Alycia: Mm.

Simon: Where you're actually getting the context. As long as the hook holds them, because a big thing that I look for the ads, right, is that, so you've got click-through rate. So this is someone that- Yeah... that clicks through the ad. You've got your conversion on the side. Now, sometimes you can put an ad that can be really short and baity and sort of like, "This is a miracle cure," and the click-through rate would be really high, but your conversion really bad.

Alycia: Mm.

Simon: But then you can have, like, that six-minute ad where the click-through rate's nowhere near as high, but it's low, but the conversion's super high, 'cause you've overcome all the objections and sold them. Yeah. And this is depends where your AO- average order value is, depends how much trust and market, which stage of the funnel. This is where I can't sort of, there's, there's not one ad that works, and if it does, everyone jumps on it like, you know, the drawing ones or whatever, and it floods out in a week.

Yeah. It's saturated and it's done. Uh, is that it's all this sort of testing and learning, and that's why my big part is, uh, building a content flywheel where a, you've gotta actually build a pipeline of, like, this is where you have source content, and this is why podcasts are really good. It's really good. It's source content- Yeah... which then can be chopped up into all these different ads, plus B-roll, plus overcoming objections, plus reviews, plus everything that you need to get across and drive it through into ads. But I'm a big one on, um, I suppose that's g- it's just my background and stuff of, of ads over organic.

Mm. Because it's just, like, organic is, is sort of like this ones where you get sort of for free, but they've built the whole system- Mm... to be on paid, and it, and it's pay to play, but the better your ads are, the lower your CPMs are, the lower you are. You get all the data, you can read off it, and I still have this huge one of tons of stuff that I'm ever using For ads, I don't even post as organic because I don't want everyone to see it.

It's because it's for a specific audience

Alycia: We have spoken to a heap of people and they do that even with, like, it is organic, but trial reels, they post so much stuff there. Yeah Like, all that top of funnel stuff goes there. All the stuff that you'd be like, "Ugh, a little bit cringey

Simon: To post" Yeah...

Alycia: Put it there, put it in ads, and we've seen, like, incredible results from podcasters running ads. Yes A lot of people don't think of it because they're like, "I don't really have a product or a service." But if you do have a product or a service, your podcast is probably one of the key pieces in your funnel.

Simon: Yes

Alycia: So we have a client, a, a previous client, and they actually ran entire episodes as ads, which we thought, like, ridiculous, this is never gonna work.

Simon: Wow

Alycia: The conversion on them, I've never seen anything like it.

Simon: Yes

Alycia: Everyone who watched it, and there were, like, multiple, multiple people who watched it, they all bought from 'em- Yeah... straight away. They're like... I mean, or they went and, like, listened to another one, and they came back, and then they were just so brought into that world because long-form content creates so much trust and rapport-

Simon: Yes

Alycia: So quickly. Um, 'cause if someone, you know, there's the big Google study, if they have to spend seven hours with you-

Simon: Yes, yeah...

Alycia: It's so much easier to do that. So I think there's a lot there. Something you did say, though, that I think is really key to pay attention to is tracking- Yes... what is happening. Yes Not just, like, running all this stuff and being like, "Oh, cool, I got some new followers." Yeah Like, anything that you're doing, and even the stuff that you mentioned at the start of, like, bringing people in, and are they actually, like, the click-through rate and all of that- Yeah... you can measure that on any platform now.

Simon: Yes

Alycia: Um, not just through ads. Like, you can measure that on organic, you can measure that on YouTube.

Simon: Yes

Alycia: And that's the way that you get better. You look at all these big creators and think that, oh, they've just, you know, got lucky. Most of them are so dialed in on their stats.

Simon: Yes. Um, I'm the biggest believer of it's, it's the art and the science, right? You have to hold, as an entrepreneur, you have to be able to hold two conflicting truths in your mind at the same time. It's, it's a battle, but yes, you have to be the art and the creative and the energy and this, and like I talk about the sales, but then it's, we would have a core value at Culture Kings, the numbers don't lie. Check the scoreboard. It's like the Jay-Z quote I'd always- Yeah, yeah, yeah... play it, but it's like we get correlated by the numbers.

Right It's not what I think is cool. It's not what our creative director... We don't all pat our selves on the back and go, "This is such a great video. It looks so great." We get back to the data and did it work?

Alycia: Mm.

Simon: And we would get correlated by that. We would change our behavior based on the data and, and you've gotta be able to hold those 'cause... And, yes, come up with new ideas and new creative and new pa-... That's how you're gonna get the breakthroughs, but it's that balance of both. Mm. And I definitely see ones that have- You know, that had such potential and failed is because they just, they like, just b- like turned a blind eye to the science side.

Yeah. Or, um, or as well too, I've been on the other side of this, you know, being public and being part of this, is when you get so dialed into the numbers that you, you kill the magic. Yeah. You know, you don't have any of the room of the oxygen. Uh, and I, this is why I'm a big believer too of like the fashion brands and stuff.

A lot of them are trying to... I, I, and I think sometimes, like I give this example, like they wanna replicate my, you know, sell to private equity and stuff. Where I'm like, there isn't a lot of examples now of actually fashion founder run, like selling to private equity and it actually working. Yeah. Uh, I do think that- It's so much is, is how that creative and the brand and, and how they can...

I, I do think just because I sort of did it that way, how that market is changing and the structuring, um, I'm, I'm trying to get that out of people's heads a lot of the time now, and more focus on, like, just drive the business, uh, properly, because when it does get into those groups, what I noticed is that when you're getting so dialed off that science and data and...

Like, you just can't run a fashion brand from a spreadsheet, so yeah. No, you

Alycia: Can't. And it is, that's that brand, and like, that again, that personality that you're buying into. And I guess something that I do wanna talk to you about is, like, that sense of belonging, like, that sense of actually, like, wanting to be here, which you did so well with Culture Kings, and people were, like, so excited to come into the store- Yeah and bring their friends in and show them. Like, it was an experience. It was a show. Yeah. It wasn't just a store. It was a place that they could feel like they were part of.

Simon: Yeah.

Alycia: If you were designing a show, how, or, or as a content creator, how could they invoke that sense of belonging?

Simon: I do really feel, and definitely watching Alex Hormozi really push the live streaming part, and he had a great analogy where he said, I think he got it from MrBeast or something, or, like, some soccer game, and they hear- heard all the cheers. You know, it was like A grade celebrity is like little cheer, then it was influencers, like little bit louder cheer, and then it was... Then finally last it was the streamers, and the cheers was off the chart louder. And it's something about that live connection I really believe, uh, especially with all the AI content and how we're going is, is how you draw it live.

How do you do it more live? How do you then interact them? How do we pull those questions back up? How do we give examples and actually, uh... That's, that's probably why, that's why I did that content down at the markets last week, was 'cause I wanted to be like, I don't, I don't wanna talk about it. I wanna f*cking show 'em. I know I'm selling there, and I'm showing the high warmth, high confidence greeting. Yeah. I'm showing how to pre... And I was just trying to actually... 'Cause I believe that's gonna be, um, part of, or let's, you know, my belief too is that that really display as we enter into this, you know, it's just always sort of changing and evolving.

Alycia: Yeah. Well, with so much AI content, how are you gonna tell, like, what is real, what is fake? Like, live stuff, you can't beat that. Yeah. And, like, even experiences, like we are seeing so many people do, like, live podcasts- Yes... or podcast shows, and they're trying- Yes... to pull the community together again, especially those ones that are niche, 'cause you know everyone in that room is gonna be, like, similar beliefs to you, similar values.

Simon: Exactly, yeah. Like,

Alycia: They love the same stuff.

Simon: Yeah.

Alycia: There's really-

Simon: Yeah, I, I do think there's huge potential. I'm, I'm super bullish on experience economy and... But doing those live and in person and the right events, it's definitely something I'm, I'm super, uh Um, I'm bullish on that Yeah... that's gonna be worth, just gonna really increase in value. And if you get ahead of it now, yeah. And, and even Alex Hormozi said this too, but it's a great point, is all the big Like whoever has these big personal brands are all really built off in-person live events. Mm. That's actually how they've all built it, you know, Tony Robbins or whatever. It's- Yeah... so it's actually from these in live, and I definitely have, I've experienced too.

It's like, yeah, you can go online or something, but it's just something different in person. Yeah. Uh, yeah.

Alycia: There's probably that ripple effect as well of like, yeah, you're there to see that person, but the rest of the things that are happening, like that connection with the person next to you or going out with your girlfriends, you've got so many positive associations- Yes with that event-

Simon: Yeah...

Alycia: Which is really interesting. We have seen that with so many creators as well. Like they'll do these live shows, and they'll do like one- uh, Lisa and Sarah, they're up in Brisbane. They do these dance parties, and they bring all these mums together. Yeah. And they have like the big stage and the shows, and everyone's so excited about being there together, and I think for you in particular, I remember I read something about you feeling for a long time that you weren't cool enough- Yeah to make this a personal brand, and a lot of podcasters will actually hide behind their guests. They're not the face of the show. Mm. They don't do a lot of solo episodes. What do you think that's costing them for not building their own personal brand?

Simon: Yes. I, I definitely do think this is part of overcoming the fear, but it's where all the money and opportunity will come from 'cause I, I suppose I, I went through this and especially as I built Culture Kings, like Culture Kings was the brand. It was never Tani and I. We were in the background. It was the thing. It was just all coming back to the brand of building of, of Culture Kings. But what I noticed as it was changing, and especially it's just accelerated this, is that the personal brand trust was coming up and corporate brand trust is going down, and a lot of that I was scared, you know, when I first started my personal brand.

This was after the exit- Yeah... after the thing. I have hundreds of millions of dollars sitting in the bank- Yeah... and I was like, I po- I would've had like five false starts where I posted a video and then like got one like, and it was my mum and just deleted it. And I just... It was this, it was... And that's when I was like, "Oh, I don't wanna do th- I don't need to do this."

Then I was thinking like, "You know what? Anything that's hard to do, that's where the opportunity is." And I was like, if I'm finding this fucking hard, like it is hard to do, but I know if I get the reps, like anything, if you do the reps, you get in the gym, you push against that resistance, you will get stronger, and you'll be able to overcome it.

I always thought like, "Oh, in the future, this is gonna be so much value. I'm gonna absolutely uppercut myself for not starting sooner." I actually had it when I saw Gary Vee in like 2019. Yeah. It was on my goal list to do it, and I still never did it. I was too scared. Yeah. I didn't start till, yeah, after I'd sold, but it is 100% It is just gonna be even more valuable, and I truly believe, like, any corporate brand is going to...

If they don't, they have to rely on this figure. Yeah. And this is where I'm big one of, like, how they even structure, like, for these corporate ones. I'm like, you need, like, the chief content officer, whatever you wanna call... Like, they're a head of marketing. Mm. Like, they're, they're more important. Like, don't think it's just someone down here that's on it. They have to be a figure of authority. They have to have... And this is where it's just so naturally comes to the founder because, well, at least they're not going anywhere, because this huge brand risk putting this on someone else- Mm... 'cause they change the competitor. You've heard all this in the women's fashion brands when they've relied so much- Mm on the look of some model. They've, some of them are paying insane money, like a million bucks a year, because they know that if they go to the competitor, it's like all the brand equity's in their face.

Alycia: Yeah.

Simon: It just goes across with it. Yeah. So this is where, this is where I truly believe, like, this chief content officer, but this is where, it's like in one life now I'm always trying to hammer, like, the, the founder should just do it. It just-

Alycia: Absolutely...

Simon: Every time I see in the ads, it comes acro- they always win. It's a, it's nothing, like, nothing can speak about more congruently about the product, about the pa- And we're all scared at the sort of start, but you've just gotta do the reps and overcome it- Yeah... and then bang. Everything

Alycia: Sucks. It just... Yes. Like, it's not like you're gonna get better by not doing it. Yeah. I think, I think what we've seen in the podcasting world as well, and you did touch on it a tiny bit as well, is bringing those characters in, like the best radio shows, the best podcasters. Actually, like, like everyone knows Nick. Nick's behind the cameras, he does all of this. Like, anyone who listens to this show regularly knows that he comes and does all of this stuff. Yeah. And in, um, bigger shows like Tony and Ryan, they have, like, their producers that sit behind there, and they're like, "Oh, yeah, what do you think of this?" Yeah,

Simon: Yeah.

Alycia: And you're creating that almost sense of family, and brands do this really well as well, you know, the ones that have the content person and they're showing the founder, but they're also- Yes... showing the marketing team-

Simon: Yes...

Alycia: Everyone else. I think that's really cool. As podcasters, I have something for you. As podcasters, we are constantly having to package things up, right? We're having to package things up to hopefully entice and bring someone into our, our world. This hat made you over $250 million. The craziest part was that no one was allowed to try it on themselves. Can you talk to me about the hat wall?

Simon: Yes.

Alycia: And why you did that?

Simon: Yeah, so a big part of, uh, one of our big breakthroughs at Culture Kings, we, I remember back, like, more than 10 years ago, we had this success of this Nike Ro shoe, um, and it was absolutely printing and selling, and it was this thing. I was like, "Wow, it's like the 15-year-old kid thinks it's cool, and, like, the 45-year-old dad."

Alycia: Mm.

Simon: So it crossed the chasm, and I'll always like, this was so rare, but what I- What I saw from that, w- my big breakthrough was that I came back to that. I was like, "How do I create that Nike Roshe of headwear?" And I remember I sat down one night and I was like, "I know it can happen," and I got myself in the right state, you know, in this creative part, going through.

And it was, uh, this is when flat brims were all the part. Mm-hmm. And I was always like, oh, to, to bridge more of the market, a lot of the cooler kids still are curving their, their flat brim. But then I was like, you can get such a wider audience if you do it. And I was playing around with different shapes and different hats and from different movies and generations.

Anyway, I came up with the A-frame hat. We worked with New Era. New Era had sort of different hats in their, um Their vault part that, that worked out these shapes. W- we went back with a heap of different samples where we twe- tweaked the, the depth- Yeah... until I believe I got it bang on, where it was the hat that could suit, it was like the 80% of people.

Yeah. And so this was the A-frame hat. But the key part was that what I wanted to do with this hat was turn someone that never worn a hat into their life, 'cause it was still a niche thing of, of wearing a flat brim. You were, you were sort of pushed into this bell curve of urban- Mm... or hip-hop sort of crowd. Whereas like how do you just extend that a lot more? Yeah. The baseball hat's still all, obviously the all generic, um, part. It's the, the king of headwear. And yeah, we developed this A-frame, but the key part was in store, is how we built it into our training, is that people wouldn't try them on themselves because I believe people have a negative reference.

This is why women's online fashion is the worst in returns, right? They just bomb everything back like crazy, and people have no idea how much this affects it. But, 'cause what happens when a girl tries it on themselves and they'll, they've got a negative, "Oh, no, it doesn't fit, doesn't suit me." Like, it's their initial reaction. Where what we wanna do, and with the hat, is that I would train the staff to get rapport with the customer, match and mirror. People like people who are like themselves or who they'd like to be. Yeah. So they're looking at the hat wall, and be like, I would... And to get across figure of authority straightaway, I wouldn't start with like this basic, "How's it going?"

Or something. Yeah. I'd just be like, "Have you se- have you tried on the A-frame yet?" It's like, "Well, what's that? What's the A-frame?" "Well, this hat we developed. We're the only store in the world that has this shape. We tweaked it with... This is the best-fitting hat you're ever gonna try on in your life. You wait till you try this on." Right? So I've already framed it- Mm... and I've already done... But then I walk you round to the mirror. "So you haven't tried it on yourself." Already got the pre-frame. Soon as you try it on, bang, hit you with the c- "See? I told you. How good does that fit?" Bang. You instantly, that state comes out of you. Like, "Yeah, it does fit.

It does." And then bang, once we sold one hat, it was the easiest thing, is once you... And this is, we have such a range. Like, the big part of creating this massive range of display- Yeah... creates this wow moment, Instagrammable moment. But it only works with dialed sales training, 'cause otherwise people get decision overwhelm. Mm. Which one do I choose? Where that, they should decide for you. Yeah. And then once I've sold you one hat, what's the easiest thing to sell you?

Alycia: Another hat.

Simon: Another hat, because I've already got the frame right, and then it's like, "Colors. Oh, do you want ones to match those shoes?" Yeah. "To come back to this? What about we have the all black that can be your go-to, and then you mix it up with the tan when you want to wear those new Nike, or these match back- Mm... to your Timberlands if you want." And then you sell two hats. We had over cap carrier deal, and the best part is that when we found this, uh, you know, it's, it was amazing repeat rate, because when someone would wear this, this hat would become part of their identity.

It's like you don't have to do your hair, you don't have to do a thing, you wear the hat. And then the best part is they just always want new ones, new colorways, but- They

Alycia: Know it's gonna fit- Mm... 'cause you know it's gonna work.

Simon: And, and that's the part, is once we overcame that, and that's where it was so important, because I know if we didn't train that, what would happen? Someone, well, 80% of people wouldn't even try it on, but the ones who would try it on would try it on with a negative frame in their head, like, "Oh, this isn't gonna fit. This isn't gonna part," and they wouldn't even put it on and it wouldn't work.

Alycia: Yeah.

Simon: So that's where it was-

Alycia: Those hats.

Simon: Yeah.

Alycia: But like, it's funny, I said to you before we even started recording, we have so many of those hats in our house.

Simon: Yes.

Alycia: Like, so many, because they are, they actually- Yeah... work. And once you do have one, you love it. Yeah. And I think with podcasting, people will be like, "You're crazy. Why are you talking about hats?" We do this all the time. Like, you have to. It's something that you've just said, what's the easiest thing to sell them? If someone loves this episode, if while I'm talking about it, I'm like, "Oh, yeah, we did this episode with, you know, Zach Owings from Gary Vee's team. Amazing episode. We were talking about, like, how you should lose the little- Yes... sort of friends at the start of your hook." People are gonna be like, "Oh, I wanna listen to that."

Simon: Yeah.

Alycia: Like, we drop episodes purposely throughout every single one.

Simon: Yes.

Alycia: And we, uh, build that rapport with them. The other thing is, like, the packaging, the framing. What are they gonna get out of this? Like- Yes... what are they going to see? How, what's the benefit for them? What's in it for them? If they see and they're like, "Oh, this is gonna be pretty negative," if you can get someone to post a comment and say like, "This was the best show.

I saw this," that's the framing. Yes. And so many people have, like, messages, like, thousands of messages saying how much they love the show. They never share them.

Simon: Yes.

Alycia: But if you share them, you're instantly having opportunities where you can frame stuff for people.

Simon: Yes.

Alycia: Which is really cool.

Simon: Yeah, you can, controlling the frame, it's just everything in sales is, is how you do it, and yeah, I've always got- Tons of stories or how I've learnt them over the years of, of how powerful it is, and it's something that, yeah, it's, the more you get a- aware to it, the more you rea- you realise, like, everything is, like, pre-framing. Yeah. Everything- Everything... we're getting pre-framed on every part of- Yeah... how to deliver and-

Alycia: Even before your episodes. Yeah. Like I tell you, exactly who we're talking to- Yeah... what we're talking about. Like, that is so important as well, so you get the right outcome from it as well. You've mentioned training a couple of times, and I do wanna dive into that because most podcasts are gonna have a team. It's not just going to be them. Yeah. It's going to be someone else doing it. When you know these skills so intrinsically yourself, what's the best way you've found from training literally thousands of staff to communicate this and then get the, I guess, buy-in from other people to be doing this stuff as well?

Simon: Yeah, so the hardest part is you actually have to go step by step and stop and pull that specific knowledge out of your head. Mm. Which a lot of founders and that just won't, 'cause it's, it's going in flow state. It's like a lot of great basketballers. They're not gonna break down the steps. They just do it. But you actually, it's a little bit painful to go step by step, "Why did I choose to go that way? Why did I choose that? Why did I say it in that tone?" That worked, and you actually have to pull it out and then break it into steps that... And you have, this is a lot of work to see what lands- Yeah... and what doesn't.

But I can tell you that is one of the biggest unlocks in the, the believer that I'm in of training. And then I think it's so important is that w- before you're starting the training, too, you have to ex- give them the outcome of why they want to learn it. Mm. What is the benefit for them? Like, when I taught all the, the staff at, at- Culture Kings how to sell, we, I was always framing is that, "Well, do you know why you wanna learn this skill?

Because if you can influence someone, this is the most vital. This is how I got Drake in the store, or ASAP Rocky, or how I did this, all came from this ability to sell and influence. And this skill you have to learn, you have to put in the reps, and this is the most ultimate training ground." Mm. And whether it's you wanna influence, uh, someone to give you a home loan, influence someone to give you a job, or influence a girl to go on a date, you know?

And that's when they all go, "Ooh, better write this down." You know, 'cause you've instantly connected to an outcome for them. They want to learn it. Mm. I think that's such an important part, is the frame. Yeah. That's why I hate so much, I'm, I'm a big one on doing it sort of internal, or it's gotta be a figure of authority, because you have to create the frame.

When someone says, "Oh, we're gonna start this training," and go, it's like everyone's hit delete in their head. Yeah. Like, there's zero fucking chance of any of it landing. You have to create that frame first and drill it into the team, but step by step chunk, and you've just gotta keep repeating it, coming back to. And especially now, the breakthrough, we are having absolute game changers with this. Some of our businesses where we're, where we're getting that data loop so good, so it's recording the conversation, it's doing it off tonality, it's say- like, it knows all the questions they had to ask, it gives them a score out of 100 for every call, how they can improve it.

And we're just seeing those scores go up and the conversion go up week on week. And so it's a big thing now is what you can do now with the conversion. We actually even have it on Zoom calls, where it has it on all the faces and it shows the engagement.

Alycia: No

Simon: Way. Right? Yeah, so- Oh my God... so you can sort of see how engaged people are. Like, oh, this person's on their phone, or this thing, or this- Wow... and tell you at different points of where they switched off, where the part, how to do the tonality better. Yeah, it's a, it's a, that, that feedback loop is really, um... So that data that you can pull out of there, and it's, it's, you know, it's... I know even as a, the founder part, it's sometimes too, like, "Oh, shit, I didn't...

Fucked that up," you know? Yeah. "I didn't, I could do it a lot better."

Alycia: Yeah.

Simon: But it really motivates you. But

Alycia: Again, bringing back that, like, analysis and that data, and you can do this with podcasts. Like, how many comments did you get? Yes. How many, like, shares did you get? How many new people did you bring in? Yes. Like, there's so many points that you can play to-

Simon: Yes...

Alycia: Which I think just gives you, again, something to measure, and go- Yes... like, what worked, what didn't work. Um, and I think that is genius. Again, that framing, bringing someone into it and getting them excited about it. Simon, I could talk to you all day. I wanna really quickly talk to you about w- how you think AI is going to change the content space.

Simon: I do think it's a ultimate leverage tool, and we're gonna be able to use it to get so much leverage, but I do think- This is where coming back to the personal brand is still g- because just the corporate, you're gonna just, anyone can spin up a brand, this faceless brand, this completely, um You know, the slop part Yeah I, I truly believe the personal brand is just gonna be way more valuable.

But it's just an amazing leverage tool of you just don't... Like, you can process all that data that was not possible before, where you could do it daily on every c- episode, every part. This is what I can improve, this is how... And then what you w- what you wanna focus on, what we wanna improve. I wanna improve my tonality, my engagement, my pa- Well, okay, let's give a measure of tonality, tonality.

I've even actually got one on my OpenClaw now where I do a daily dump throughout times of the day of what I'm working on, but it's measuring my tone for my emotional state and sort of... So I can... My thing is not, uh, for now, is not so much how do I optimize, how do I make as much money? But how do I lift my emotional state?

How do I do the stuff that gives me the most fun and the most leverage? Yeah. And a lot of that, 'cause I love business so much, I wanna talk about and do business, but I don't wanna just talk, I wanna do, and execute, and keep learning, and keep growing. But- Yeah... my tonality that I'm measuring off my OpenClaw, the voice is giving me a score that I actually have this data to sort of correlate back- Ah and get more, uh, well, so that I make sure I do stuff that I, I love.

Alycia: That is so cool. And, like, there's so much information out there. Like, if you asked it to find you, like, what is the best, you know, pitch, pace, uh, volume that I need to be at? It knows that.

Simon: Yes.

Alycia: And then it can measure you, give you feedback. Like, we use it all the time with some of our clients to practice their interviews as well. But, like, every time you drive, just open it up and start talking to it. Yes. Like, get it to do, um, for, for people who are appearing on podcasts, get it to ask you questions. Yes. You can write more responses. Yeah. Or, you know, get you to interview someone.

It just gives you so much feedback, and you don't even... Like, that's doing it live. You've got so much information as a podcaster. You can just feed the audio in as well.

Simon: Yeah.

Alycia: Yeah. It's

Simon: Amazing. And it's just the ultimate leverage. But yeah, it's only gonna keep increasing, keep accelerating. And you've gotta stay in it, you've gotta play with it. You can't outsource it. You can't be like, "Well, this is someone else to do." No. Like, I truly believe you've gotta build it into... Every person's gotta build it into their own workflows in their role.

Alycia: Yeah.

Simon: Like, that's- Yeah... it's not for someone else to do. And if you do that, though, I, I, I truly believe I've never had more fun working with AI because it's just the acceleration, the speed, the, the boring stuff.

Alycia: Yeah.

Simon: The how much more you can think of opportunities and run models and stuff just talking to it is so fun. '

Alycia: Cause you get that, like, instant response as well. We used to have, like, data analysts that'd be like, "Pull all this for me." Oh. Like, three days later I get it. I'm like, "Oh, I'm not interested anymore."

Simon: Yeah.

Alycia: Like, it's so good. Um, Simon, a question that we ask everyone to the podcast is what is one podcast that's regularly on your rotation, and why do you keep coming back to it?

Simon: Uh, I love- All In podcast and Moonshots

Alycia: Mm

Simon: I suppose I'm really big on the, the AI, the progressive. I know All In podcast and it sort of, I loved it at the start and then it went more political. But as I've evolved, I've realised as you, as you go like, you can only make a sort of much money for yourself, but if you wanna have impact, actually political is where the impacts come from. So it's not something where I know in my journey of building Culture Kings, I wouldn't have a clue of even who was in government or anything.

Yeah. Right? But I, as I sort of see now is learning a lot more about that has been really good in expanding my, my worldview, and it's just that connection I feel like you're really getting that, the, like the way they break down the news and how they're processing it, how you're thinking it, I really think that nuance learning has been awesome.

Alycia: No, a perfect niche.

Simon: Yes.

Alycia: Amazing. Thank you so much for joining us. Where's the best place for people to connect with you?

Simon: Uh, Instagram is where I try, and I'm trying to master short form content first. So just as much value per second is my goal. So- Mm... short snippets of value that you can directly take action of that can, you know, I really wanna help founders and business people grow, build their business, scale it internationally, and I wanna see 'em do it better and faster than me.

Learn all

Alycia: The secrets. Well, you definitely do. I will pop it all in the show notes, but thank you again.

Simon: Cheers. Thank you